It's been a while since I've gone and done a “Let's Talk About:” post, mainly because most of the comic related stuff I've wanted to say I've been able to say during one of my other MANY posts. Lately though, I've been giving a lot of thought as to the current direction of the DCU, especially in light of the conclusion to Blackest Night. Before I really begin to get rolling here, be warned I WILL begin to rant and rave, so be prepared...
Although I have grown up exclusively reading Marvel Comics, the recent BENDISization of the Marvel Universe has caused my interest in Marvel to wane to the point where I'd consider DC my favorite comic company... At least for now. However, it really wouldn't take much for me to switch allegiances again, which is what this post is really all about. While Marvel seems to be getting it right(bringing back the REAL Avengers, while still holding onto the character development they've spent the past several years cultivating, be it good or bad), DC has been sucked into some sort of bizarre time warp. And the man responsible for DC comics vexing current direction? Why none other then the guy I've voted as my favorite comic writer for the past two consecutive years, Geoff Johns.
Let's take a look at what I'd suspect the year 2011 is going to look like in the DCU. Superman will be patrolling the streets of Metropolis, while Bruce Wayne will be Batman. The main Green Lantern will be Hal Jordan and the number one Flash will be SAINT Barry Allen. Other notable DC heroes would probably be Wonder Woman, Aquaman, the Martian Manhunter and Green Arrow... Now let's hop in the old time machine and go back a mere 10 years to the year 2000... The Trinity of Superman, Wonder Woman and Batman was intact(as it always should be), while the secondary DC heroes were actually different and interesting. Wally West was the main Flash, having taken over the role from his former mentor, SAINT Barry. Kyle Rayner was the prime Green Lantern, with Hal Jordan having gone insane and then sacrificing his life to save the Earth. Aquaman had gone through several changes which included him losing his kingdom and his hand, while Oliver Queen, Green Arrow, died saving Metropolis and was replaced by his son, Connor Hawke. The Martian Manhunter was still the Martian Manhunter, although even his usually boring origin was spruced up with the advent of the evil White Martians. Since I have the old time machine out, let's travel all the way back to the 1960's next. The Trinity was still in place, while the main Flash was SAINT Barry Allen with Hal Jordan serving as the prime Green Lantern. Other notable heroes included Aquaman, the Martian Manhunter and Green Arrow... Sound familiar? It should, it's the exact same as what I figure 2011 will look like.
Now, I have to ask myself why this is... Why is DC(under the stewardship of Geoff)undoing YEARS of stories and character development and bringing us all to the 1960's? And the thing is, it's not only the big name characters who are suffering DC's bizarre flashback-itis, it's the secondary characters as well. Take Roy Harper for example. Back in the late 70's, Roy was a childless former sidekick who was struggling to find his place, while resorting to drugs to help him along. In the mid 00's, Roy had become a member of the JLA, was a father, had kicked his habit and was standing on his own two feet. Now? Roy's a childless former hero with no place, resorting to drugs to help himself along. I wonder how long it is before Dick Grayson is back in the speedo, hopping around Batman while shouting, “Holy machine gun umbrella, Batman!”. Marvel went through a similar phase back in the early 00's, but they handled it in a much more sensible way. They created a line of comics(the Ultimate books)that took their most famous franchises and rebooted them, while still allowing the mainstream Marvel Universe to continue to grow, change and expand. So you were able to read about dead/older characters from back when they were younger. Peter Parker was no longer a married man trying to make ends meet, he was a timid high school student living a double life once again. Cyclops wasn't the leader of all things mutant, he was still a student at Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters, trying to get his powers under control. DC DID actually do something similar with their All-Star line, but instead of growing it, they allowed it to fall into disarray, or maybe they realized since the mainstream DCU had BECOME the All-Star world, they didn't need to continue that line anymore.
I'm not saying it's all good over at Marvel, because it most DEFINITELY isn't! Marvel has their fair share of problems/gaffs(mainly the whole, “No more Mutants” decree), but they seem to be slowly attempting to right them while moving forward, not trying to completely turn back the clock like their Distinguished Competition. It's sad because I have enjoyed becoming a fan of the DCU. I've enjoyed reading about its myriad of heroes from the 1930's to today, but I just don't think ignoring the past 30 years worth of stories is the way to go. I will admit that some characters(such as Hal Jordan)do deserve a second chance at life because of the unsatisfying way they met their fate, but that doesn't mean EVERY major character who has died in the past 30 years also needs to be returned to life! Some deaths fit, were hugely important and should have had some permanence to them. My favorite example of that is of course the Flash, SAINT Barry Allen. SAINT Barry died in an attempt to save the multiverse. He died the hero's death, he was mourned and was replaced by his sidekick, everything seemed in order, it all made perfect sense story wise and didn't at all seem forced, shouldn't that have been the end of his tale? The same can be said for the Martian Manhunter and Aquaman. Sure they have their own legion of fans(I'd consider myself a fan of the latter), but DC KILLED them off. Shouldn't that mean something? Now they're back, for very little reason that I can fathom, probably to continue doing what they were doing 40 years ago... Umm, eating cookies and talking to dolphins I guess... Am I saying that we should ignore the Silver Age DC heroes, and only concentrate on the DC heroes who were active in the 90's/00's? No of course not, but we should also move forward, not back, which is unfortunately the only direction Geoff Johns and the current brain trust over at DC seem capable of heading... Well there we go, I've stuck my head in the hornet's nest and am ready to be stung!
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Lmao. So I read that article and agreed with everything you said X, down to every last word about Roy, the time machine and everything, but I'd be lying if I said my favorite part wasn't "eating cookies and talking to dolphins." Omg I laughed SO hard when I read that. Just perfect comedic timing. But besides that great post, I never really thought about how backwards everything is. Hopefully the situation is rectified sooner than later.
ReplyDeleteGlad you liked it JT! As for perfect comedic timing, I must be a natural, because I doubt I did that on purpose! :p
ReplyDeleteI just don't get the whole, "Let's party like it's 1964!" attitude that seems to be prevalent in the DCU today, but I really hope it stops soon. Good things have happened in DC since the 60's! Really!
Good sir, you had me at "machine gun umbrella."
ReplyDeleteI think the cyclically nature of all comic stories is rather frustrating. I mean, when you sit back and look at our chosen hobby, it's pretty much a futile endeavor. The same stories are still being told today as they were in the 60's, the books that are coming out today are never going to increase in value (aside from sentiment value), and any story elements or characters you come to enjoy can be erased or replaced in an instant.
What I think DC is trying to do right now is really set a consistent tone with all characters. They want the silver age characters, because in their company history, those are the heroes featured in the most material they've produced(see the DC Showcase Collections, there's a lot of stupid freaking comics with these character in them!). DC is obviously setting itself up to move across more money making markets, such as film and tv, and they want people to see the same character in whichever format they go to for entertainment. So, yeah, now you can see Martian Manhunter eating oreos on film, computer app, and printed page. If DC struck a deal with Oreo, it could mean some big bucks from product placement.
It's one of those things where we fanboys cross the line and actually start to care about fictional chracters whose only real purpose is to make money. But if I could bring myself to care about real people in the same way, I wouldn't have much to complain about, would I? Well maybe...
I think the corporatization of the major comic book companies is the real problem here. Comics sold way more copies in the '50s and '60s than they do today, but the difference was that they didn't have to maintain some kind of brand continuity across a bunch of different mediums. There was a point where Superman was featured in comics, on the radio, and on TV, and the people who did each of those things had relatively little interaction with each other. Today that sort of independence would be unheard of.
ReplyDeleteBut on the other hand, as much as I hate to say it, fans are a huge part of the problem too. Comics in the early '60s were about giving kids a fun experience every month that would keep them coming back with their dime for another issue every month. There was no such thing as "continuity," really...if one character showed up in another's comic, it was a special event or just to do something fun and different. But today's fans raise all hell if a comic universe's continuity seems even slightly off, to the point that an entire company's comics have to be in lock-step with each other just to keep up.
That's why you see brilliant talents like Brubaker and Fraction having such little effect on the X-books...they're being forced to coordinate what they're doing with a bunch of other people instead of doing their own thing (like Morrison did, to great success), simply because that's what the fans seem to want. And it's why you see fans getting bent out of shape about the admittedly silly way that Jason Todd came back from the dead, when the means of his return were never supposed to be a point in the first place. I could go on an on with examples, but I think you get the point.
The fact is that we live in a world where comics fans balk at the idea of reading something that's "out of continuity" or won't affect future stories, oftentimes choosing instead to read things that they think "matter" but in terms of quality are pure crap. The fact that these are, in large part, the people who buy comics is what necessitates the building of comics universes that have a consistent message or theme. The companies need to make sure their customers feel like everything they buy "counts," or they're going to stop buying.
There's no way to dispute that Geoff Johns is an expert at this kind of comics world-building. He can coordinate an entire line of books both thematically and in terms of continuity, which as I've just been saying, are the two things that fans want.
Just look at Blackest Night, and all the books outside the main series that Johns was able to get people to buy. He's an absolute master at this, which is why DC just promoted him to creative director or whatever. In a corporate comic book culture, he's exactly the kind of person they want running their creative department. And it just so happens that he has a thing for the Silver Age, and that's the theme he's going to use to unify the DCU thematically.
Like it or not, we've partly responsible for creating this comic book culture ourselves, and for putting Johns into a position where he can basically do whatever the hell he wants from here on out.
Ooo, that was all very nicely put Kello. There's a lot to discuss here! "They want the silver age characters, because in their company history, those are the heroes featured in the most material they've produced" See, this is somewhere I have to respectfully disagree... And I'll even use my favorite whipping boy(SAINT Barry)as an example. Barry was the Flash for 29 years(1956-1985). Wally was the Flash for 24 years(1986-2010)PLUS he was Kid Flash for 27 years... Wally has been a Flash for 51(!)years, which to me would say that Wally IS the Flash WAY more then Barry! The Silver Age heroes are well known in the fanboy community, but if we're talking about expanding into other forms of media, we're dealing with casual fans, who probably don't even know there have been 4 Flashes. Why not use Wally West if you're going to do a Flash movie? Personally I've always found Wally more interesting then the stodgy Saint Barry. You can't get away with that for the Trinity, but for the secondary DC heroes, I don't understand why they feel they MUST rely on the old guard. Why not do a Kyle Rayner cartoon instead of a Hal Jordan one? It would still say Green Lantern, right? The only people you'd be offending would be the Hal fanboys, the little kids watching the show would see Kyle as Green Lantern, which wouldn't be a bad thing.
ReplyDeleteI guess my problem with the whole Showcase theory is that if you're moving from the comics to film/TV, you need to attract more then the fanboys, because their support wouldn't be enough to keep the show/movie afloat. That's why to me the real names don't matter to the franchise. As a company, DC should take the most INTERESTING of the characters(be it Wally West, Barry Allen, Jay Garrick or even Bart Allen for Flash, the various Green Lanterns, and Ollie or Connor for GA, etc)and build the franchise around THAT character. To me, Wally is way more interesting then Barry, Hal and Kyle are pretty close, and Ollie is definitely more interesting then Connor.
See for me, I spend all of this money on comics because I DO care about these fictional characters. And when a character that I'm a fan of gets pushed aside for a has-been, I DO get upset. Well maybe not full on upset, let's say slightly miffed.
That's probably spot-on Marc. I was actually reading a Showcase comic(Brave and the Bold I think it was)where Bats and Saint Barry team-up and Barry is dying due to some kind of running ailme nt. Eventually Bats finds the cure(or something), but I'd bet good money that that entire story was never even mentioned in the main Flash series back then. Nowadays, like you said, if something "major" happened to Flash in a Batman comic, you'd EXPECT to hear about it in the Flash comic.
ReplyDeleteBut to the continuity arguement I simply say, do an off-shoot universe. It worked(for a time)with the Ultimate line of books, and although it all went so horribly, horribly wrong, the Ultimate line is still hanging around even today.
As fans we need our continuity, I'll admit that. I'm one of those fans who gets VERY bent out of shape when something is blatantly out of continuity. But that's a reason to do a full All-Star line. Promote it by putting a guy like Geoff in charge. Fill it with other big names. Pattern it completely after the Silver Age if that's what Geoff wants. That way your main universe is still moving forward, while you have your "new" Silver Age universe.
I don't know if you've seen/heard about the Forever titles for Marvel(X-Men and X-Factor)Marc, but that's another idea DC should have considered going with. Do a Green Lantern Forever comic where it takes the events of Reign of the Supermen and erases it from happening, or a Flash Forever where there never was a first Crisis, and as such Barry never died. That way you can just create your own continuity as opposed to crushing/bending/twisting continuity to fit characters who should be long dead.
Just a quick comment X, I guess because of his Death, up until that animated film Hal hadn't been in anything animated since the Super Friends show. Even on Superman The Animated Series there's a whole episode about Kyle Rayner becoming the Green Lantern and fighting Sinestro. As John Stewart was the resident Green Lantern on the JLA Cartoon, which was mainly because they needed to add a minority to the group, which they did with John and by making Shayera Latina. Just thought that may interest you.
ReplyDeleteAlso I didn't wanna double post but the resident Speedster on Smallville is actually Bart Allen. He even has a bunch of fake ID's that have his name as Wally West, Barry Allen and Jay Garrick.
ReplyDeleteAlso this is off subject but this Friday Maxwell Lord is making his Smallville debut, just though you may be interested in knowing that.
See, now the kids who may not have even been GL fans would grow up thinking Kyle Rayner or John Stewart is the main Green Lantern, not Hal. A few years pass, they pick up a GL comic and it's Hal, not Kyle/John...
ReplyDeleteSee, I personally think DC is putting too much faith in the Silver Age. The Silver Age ran from what? The mid 50's to the early 70's? That would put the people who grew up reading about those characters at around their 40's to 60's, right? That's not the demographic DC should be going for. They should be going for the 18-40 year old demographic. And that would be people who grew up in 80's-90's, whose Flash was Wally West and GL was Kyle Rayner. Why go after a demographic that isn't going to benefit your company?
I have seen the Forever comics at Marvel, and even though I've heard X-Men Forever isn't very good, I still think it's a great idea. I agree that DC might benefit from doing something similar. But at the same time I can see why they're not doing it: they're afraid of losing the average continuity whore's money. They'd rather just keep the top creators on the books that are already selling, in the hope that they'll sell even more copies.
ReplyDeleteI guess I'm just sort of weird in that I'm very firmly in the typical comic-buying age demographic, but I grew up reading Silver Age comics and for the most part I enjoy older comics more than newer ones. So the idea of DC emphasizing some of the themes that made the Silver Age great doesn't bother me in the least. But if they're doing that at the expense of everything that's come after the Silver Age, I don't think that's right. There must be a happy medium to be found somewhere, right?
ReplyDeleteYeah, I know a lot of people that think Green Lantern is a Black dude, and even more that don't know there's literally thousands of Green Lanterns. I definitely get your point though. It doesn't make sense to invest in characters that have been around long enough for my Grandparents to read when they have perfectly good characters they can develop more like Kyle, Superboy, Bart, Ravager, hell even people like Dick, Jason, Roy who should really be doing something important other than a temporary Batman replacement, a psychotic breakdown and taking a HUGE step back in character development.
ReplyDeleteYeah Marc, I def like the idea of a DC Forever line, but like you said, economically DC must not think the risk would be worth the reward, or I'm sure they'd have given it a go.
ReplyDeleteOh, so you're in your element with the new/old DCU! I grew up reading comics in the 90's, and only started reading DC's in the 00's, so most of the DC books I could get cheap were from the 90's and 00's, which is why I hate the whole, "It's the Silver Age again!" idea. These characters aren't MY characters. But for you I'd guess the opposite is true. You'd probably look at Wally West and be like, "He shouldn't be the Flash!" As for a happy medium, I'm not sure there can be one. There can only be one main Flash, Green Lantern, etc, and those main characters look like they're coming from the Silver Age. If you don't mind me asking Marc, how'd you grow up on Silver Age books if you're more from the Modern Age?
Yeah JT, every generation has their own heroes in the DCU it seems. After so many years, the old heroes step aside and the new breed rises up. It happened to the Golden Age heroes(the JSA characters), and it happened to the Silver Age characters, except all of the Silver Age characters have come back again, which has displaced the Modern Age characters...
Hey, this has been a pretty good discussion so far, way better then I expected. Great work guys!
ReplyDeleteI definitely didn't expect this many comments this fast on this post, that was like a comment tornado.
ReplyDeleteRight? Not bad at all! See, this tells me I should break from the straight reviews more often!
ReplyDeleteYa gotta switch it up, just don't steal my What I learned from idea ;) But yeah, I was genuinely happy to see a Let's Talk About post today just because you rarely do them. I'd be the same way if you busted out a Best of the Rest.
ReplyDeleteDon't be surprised if you see a Best of the Rest post towards the end of the week, 'cause I can see myself not getting a lot of reviews up this week with all the school work coming up. I might just take a bunch of lesser comics and throw 'em all in one big post.
ReplyDeleteAwesome, don't be surprised if you see some more reviews this week, because I got Green Lantern Corps Recharge, and that Flash and Green Lantern you recommended with Green Lantern Jr., as well as Spider-Man Noir and of course, the upcoming What I learned from Cry for Justice.
ReplyDeleteWell as long as we're all pimping our upcoming posts/reviews, I guess I should mention that, as per usual, I'll have a new review up at midnight tonight. I don't know if you guys will have read this one, but you've probably at least heard of a movie or two that were based on it. It's my first experience with this franchise, so I come at it from that persepctive, which I hope will make it interesting whether or not you've actually read it.
ReplyDeleteAnyhow, when I first became interested in comics as a kid I turned to my local library. At that time the Marvel Masterworks series was just starting, so the library had just a ton of Silver Age collections available for me to read. I talk about that a little bit in my review of the ASM Omnibus, which I love because basically it's a collection of all my favorite comics from when I was a kid. I also read a lot of SA Fantastic Four, and a little of the X-Men, Avengers, and Daredevil.
When I first got interested in DC, which was only a few years ago, I decided that I'd approach it the way I did Marvel: read the Golden and Silver Age stuff to see how it all began, then move on to Modern. But I ended up liking the older stuff a lot more than I expected, with Flash and Green Lantern in particular being just amazing books from the Silver Age. I still haven't read as much Modern material as I'd like, but I'll get there eventually.
The reason DC is letting Geoff Johns undo years of character development is because DC has decided (rightfully) that they should go back to the classics because they had screwed it up, and that is a good decision, I miss Clark Kent, and Bruce Wayne, so I'm exited
ReplyDeleteJozeph I disagree completely with what you just wrote. Going back to the classics isn't going to change anything because you have to move forward eventually. Whereas bringing Hal back was a smart decision Barry's return has been lackluster to say the least. Maybe things will change with "Flashpoint" next year but as of now it's proved to not be a very good idea.
ReplyDeleteI disagree that they screwed it up as well, nothing was wrong with Roy's Character, nor Oliver Queen's and now both have undergone huge character transformations to fix something that wasn't broken in the first place.
I kinda see your point about missing Bruce Wayne, but he's barely been gone two years and there's still many comics that feature Bruce Wayne as Batman instead of Dick Grayson. (Widening Gyre is one of them) As for you missing Clark Kent, he hasn't gone anywhere. But, I understand seeing as how that's your Opinion.
First off, pimp away guys! It's always smart to remind me when you guys post something new, because you know I'll def go over and check it out! Ah, so it was the library that got your comic book flame burning Marc. I have A LOT of the Essential Marvel collections(all of the ones you mentioned except for Daredevil, plus a few others), but only a few DC Showcases. I've got to say, the DC Showcases I have really haven't impressed me all that much, but that may have a lot to do with the ones I have... I don't have a Flash or Green Lantern Showcase, and with SAINT Barry back I think I should definitely pick up one of the old Flash Showcases. Who knows, maybe that'll set me straight and turn me into a fan of the Sainted One!
ReplyDeleteI also have to say that JT totally took the words right out of my mouth, Jozeph. While I'll agree with you about Bruce and Supes needing to be back in their rightful places(I don't think the Trinity ever needs a drastic shake-up), I don't see how the DCU needs to be "rightfully" sent back to the Silver Age. I think there has been a lot of good that has come since the early 70's. Things need to evolve, not go backwards, at least that's my take.
I don't own any Showcases either, but I have gotten several from the library and there are a few sitting in my online shopping cart right now. In terms of print quality, I think the Showcases are actually better put together and use a better paper stock than the Essentials. But as for the story quality, it all depends on what you buy.
ReplyDeleteI used to buy a lot of Essentials, but I sort of stopped when I decided that I was willing to pay a little extra to have the stories in color. Sometimes I still buy Essentials for things that haven't been released (or I think have very little potential to be released) in color.
DC's "Chronicles" series are, in my opinion, a very good way to get into some of DC's older comics. They don't reprint as many issues as the Showcases, but they're in color and I think that's really important for some characters, especially Flash and Green Lantern. (I mean, how can you a comic in black & white when it has a color in its TITLE??) And there's also the Crisis on Multiple Earths: The Team-Ups Vol. 1, which is a trade I recommended to JT a little while back.
Yeah, I've got to say, I love Green Arrow and the Teen Titans, but reading through their respective Showcase books was quite the chore!
ReplyDeleteHmm, I'll definitely check out these DC Chronicles, because if there's one character who REALLY needs to be read in color, it's Green Lantern! As for this Crisis on Multiple Earths: The Team-Ups Vol. 1, I'll be keeping an eye out for that as well. But first and foremost, I think it's a real good idea to but one of the Flash Showcases asap! Keep sending those recommendations Marc, I almost always act on them. As a matter of fact, I just received the first Wolverine Weapon X trade that we were discussing before.
Cool! I've been thinking of ordering the first Wolverine: Weapon X trade myself, since I don't own all the issues and it's something I could see myself reading over and over in the future.
ReplyDeleteOne of the few comics to ever make me laugh out loud was one of the first issues of the Silver Age Green Lantern series (I want to say it was issue 5, 6, or 7...somewhere around there). Hal wishes for a "thriller-diller" of a time on his date with Iris, but his ring takes the wish a little too seriously by creating a giant Godzilla-type monster that starts stomping around the city calling itself "Thriller-Diller!" It's one of those things where you really need the color just to appreciate the absurdity of it all.
Yeah, you definitely sold me on that trade Marc. I'm hoping to give it a read sometime next week when things quiet down a bit for me.
ReplyDelete"Thriller-Diller"??? I think I'm at a loss for words! If I do buy the early GA books, I'll def put out the extra money though to buy the colorized version. But first I'm REALLY leaning towards picking up the first Flash Showcase collection. I might order that as soon as tomorrow depending on what's coming out this week.
If you don't mind the black & white, definitely go for the Flash Showcase edition. The stories are great, and as I'm sure you know, that's the comic that "officially" started the Silver Age. Personally I love the color in those stories, and I'm gearing up for a pretty big order in the near future which will include the first two Flash Chronicles trades (a lot of the same material as the Showcase, but in color).
ReplyDeleteI was shopping for some stuff at Amazon today and while I was there I figured I'd check out these DC Chronicles. Long story short, I wound up buying Flash vol. 1, Green Lantern vol. 1 and Batman vol. 1! If they would have had the first Superman, I'd have probably picked that up as well! They were all around $10 and change, so I figured, why not. I was also going to pick up that Crisis on Multiple Earths vol. 1 trade, but the shipping for it was delayed, so I passed.
ReplyDeleteI figure if the Flash trade is good, I'll prob go and pick up the Flash Showcase trade. If the GL one is good though, I'll prob stick with the Chronicles, since(as you pointed out)it really doesn't make much sense to read a GL comic in B&W
I am incredibly happy to hear about those purchases, and can't wait to hear what you think of them. I'm not a big fan of Golden Age Batman, personally, but regardless I think it's something everyone should read just to get a feel for how the character started out. Golden Age Superman, on the other hand, is fantastic. If you find the first Chronicles trade elsewhere, I highly recommend it.
ReplyDeleteAlso, the first few stories of Crisis on Multiple Earths: The Team-Ups Vol. 1 should actually be read BEFORE Crisis on Multiple Earths Vol. 1. You wouldn't think so based on the titles, I know, but the material in Team-Ups is what sets up the DC Multiverse (and thus all the stories in the main Crisis on Multiple Earths series) in the first place.
Well, those books shipped out earlier today, and Amazon is usually pretty good with getting stuff to me in relatively short order, so I'm hoping to have them in my hands early next week. I'm really hoping the Flash book helps me get over my hatred for Saint Barry...
ReplyDeleteYeah, it actually was the Team-Ups book that was back ordered at Amazon. I guess I'll see if I can come across a CB shop that has both the Supes Chronicles book and the Crisis: Team-Ups book, so I can order them both. It's usually this time of year, with the school year winding down, when I make the majority of my spur of the moment CB purchases!